Rev. Rob W. Lee IV & Prof. Ted DeLaney: A Conversation About Reconciling Our History

Rev. Rob W. Lee IV & Prof. Ted DeLaney: A Conversation About Reconciling Our History


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THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FOR THE CONVERSATION BETWEEN REV. ROBERT W. LEE IV AND PROFESSOR TED DELANEY. THIS IS A SPONSORED BY THE CAMPUS COALITION FOR CHANGE. ALSO THE BLACK LAW STUDENTS ASSOCIATION AND THE SYDNEY LEWIS A LA CENTER. PROFESSOR CARLISS CHATMAN WILL MODERATE THIS MODERATION TODAY. REV. LEE SAYS THAT SOME OF US A CALL TO COMMUNICATE WITH THE MASSES. I BELIEVE ALL OF US ARE CALLED TO COMMUNICATE WITH ONE ANOTHER. THE GOAL OF TODAY’S EVENT IS TO BEGIN THE COMMUNICATION BY BRINGING TOGETHER TWO PEOPLE WITH VERY DIFFERENT HISTORIES WITH LEXINGTON AND WASHINGTON AND LEE. REV. LEE IS A DESCENDENT OF PRESIDENT AND CONFEDERATE GENERAL ROBERT E. LEE AND IS BEST KNOWN FOR HIS ACTIVISM IN SPEAKING OUT AGAIN AGAINST WHITE SUPREMACY. HE IS JOINING US TO DISCUSS THAT ACTIVISM AND HIS BOOK SIN BY ANY OTHER NAME: A RECKONING WITH SOUTH PROFESSOR TED DELANEY IS A FOURTH GENERATION RESIDENT OF LEXINGTON AND A PROFESSOR OF HISTORY AT WASHINGTON AND LEE. AFTER WORKING AS A LAB ASSISTANT FOR TWO DECADES, HE BEGAN ATTENDING W & L FULL- TIME AT AGE OF 40. PROFESSOR TED DELANEY GRADUATED LAUDE IN 1985 AND RECEIVED A PHD FROM WILLIAM AND MARY IN 1985 AND THEN RETURNED TO WASHINGTON AND LEE AS FACULTY. HE HAS BEEN AN INFLUENTIAL FORCE SERVING THE COMMUNITY IN IMMEASURABLE WAYS. WITHOUT ANY FURTHER ADO I WILL TURN THIS OVER TO PROFESSOR CARLISS CHATMAN. THANK YOU. >>>THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY. I WOULD LIKE TO THANK REV. LEE FOR COMING OUT TO LEXINGTON FOR THE SECOND TIME IN HIS LIFE AND TOURING OUR CAMPUS TO EMBARK ON THIS CONVERSATION. THE GOAL FOR TODAY IS TO START A DIALOGUE THAT HOPEFULLY WILL CONTINUE. A MEANINGFUL CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW WE RECONCILE THE PAST OF WASHINGTON AND LEE AND MOVE FORWARD IN THE FUTURE. THE WAY THAT I WOULD LIKE THIS TO WORK. I WOULD LIKE TO FEEL LIKE WE ARE EAVESDROPPING ON THEIR CONVERSATION. I WILL ONLY JUMP IN WHEN I NEED TO TO KEEP THE CONVERSATION MOVING. MY HOPE IS THAT REV. LEE AND PROFESSOR TED DELANEY WILL INFORM US AND HOW TO KEEP THE DIALOGUE CONTINUING. >>THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME THIS IS MY SECOND TIME TO LEXINGTON. I SAY THAT BECAUSE IN A REAL SENSE I HAVE BEEN TERRIFIED TO COME HERE. THAT’S NOT YOUR FAULT. I PROMISE. NONE OF YOU HAVE DONE ANYTHING TO ME. THERE IS A VERY REAL SENSE OF THE WEIGHT OF HISTORY IN THIS PLACE. FOR ME ESPECIALLY A REALITY THAT I HAVE TO FACE WHEN I WALK ONTO THIS CAMPUS. I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT IT HAPPENED FOR ME TODAY IN A PROFOUND WAY. AS A STEPHANIE WAS TAKING ME ON A TOUR OF LEE CHAPEL, AND I SAW PRESIDENT LEE AND HIS CIVILIAN GARB. BUT I HAVE NOT SEEN IN A LONG TIME. HE LOOKED REALLY SAD. HE LOOKED REALLY BROKEN. IT IS EASY FOR ME TO HATE ON THE IDEOLOGY OF PRESIDENT AND CONFEDERATE GENERAL ROBERT E. LEE . BUT I HAD TO REMEMBER HIS HUMANITY IN THAT MOMENT. IT WAS DIFFICULT, YOU HAVE THIS IMAGE OF HIM IF YOU ARE PROGRESSIVE PERSON OR A PERSON OF GOODWILL. YOU SEE THAT HE FOUGHT FOR THE CONTINUED ENSLAVEMENT OF BLACK PEOPLE IN THE CIVIL WAR. WHAT YOU DO WITH THAT? I THINK YOU DO WHAT WE ARE DOING NOW. AND THAT IS HAVING A CONVERSATION, SURROUNDING EACH OTHER AND ENVELOP EACH OTHER WITH LOVE AND ACCEPTANCE AND TOLERANCE WHILE RECOGNIZING THAT THERE IS A PAINFUL PAST THAT WE ALL SHARE. REGARDLESS IF YOU ARE FROM MAINE OR GEORGIA, WHETHER YOU’RE FROM CALIFORNIA OR NORTH CAROLINA. WE ARE ALL PART OF THIS CONVERSATION. AND IT IS INCUMBENT ON ALL OF US. WHETHER YOUR NAME IS ROBERT LEE , OR IF YOU’RE A PERSON OF COLOR TO SOMEHOW FIND YOUR PART, YOUR ROLE, YOUR TASK IN THIS CONVERSATION. >>ONE THING THAT STRIKES ME ABOUT WHAT I’VE READ OF YOUR MEMOIR, THIS SEEMS TO BE A VERY SPIRITUAL JOURNEY. BECAUSE OF THE VERY SPIRITUAL JOURNEY IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IT TAKES A DIMENSION THAT A SOCIETY DOESN’T LOOK AT. BERNICE KING IN THE INTRODUCTION TO YOUR MEMOIR REFERS TO IT AS THE LETTER OF LOVE TO THE CHURCH. I WOULD LIKE YOU TO EXPAND ON THE WHOLE IDEA THAT THIS IS A LETTER OF LOVE. THIS MEMOIR IS A MEMOIR WITH SUBMISSION? WHAT IS YOUR VISION FOR ALL THAT? >>AS I SAID. THE GREATEST SECRET IS THAT I HAVE A BOOK COMING OUT NEXT TUESDAY. YOU CAN BUY IT ON AMAZON OR WHEREVER BOOKS ARE SOLD. I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO GET TO KNOW BERNICE KING, THE DAUGHTER OF THE LATE DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. SHE SAID IT REMINDS ME MY FATHER’S LETTER FROM THE BIRMINGHAM JAIL. I HAD TO PICK MYSELF UP OFF THE FLOOR. THERE IS A VERY PASTORAL ASPECT OF CALLING PEOPLE TO JUSTICE. THERE IS A HOLY ACT OF SAYING THE WAY THINGS ARE NOW ARE NOT THE WAY THINGS SHOULD BE. I HAD SOME LIGHT READING TODAY. I DON’T KNOW THE CORRECT TERMINOLOGY BUT I WAS READING THE COMMISSION THAT YOU COMMISSIONED ON MOVING FORWARD WITH THE UNIVERSITY. I READ THAT AND WAS AMAZED THAT YOU ACTUALLY WANTED TO HAVE A CONVERSATION. THE CHURCH DOES NOT WANT TO DO THAT. YOU’RE DOING A BETTER JOB THAN THE CHURCH. DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. SAID IT BEST. THE CHURCH IS THE MOST SEGREGATED HOUR THAT WE HAVE. IN MY HOMETOWN OF STATESVILLE, NORTH CAROLINA WE HAVE FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH, AND FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH INCORPORATED. THE ONE ON GARFIELD, PEOPLE OF COLOR GO TO. YOU THINK DID JIM CROWE IS DEAD, SOME COLUMN JIM CROW ESQUIRE IN THE LAW SCHOOL. BACK TO YOUR SPIRITUAL POINT. I THINK THE HOLY ACT OF RESISTANCE AS TO THE STATUS QUO. WHAT HAPPENED IN CHARLESTON TO WHAT HAPPENED IN CHARLOTTESVILLE . THAT IS THE GOSPEL WORD. TO SAY THAT IS NOT WHO WE ARE, THAT WE ARE BETTER THAN THAT, AND ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. >>WE TALK ABOUT FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH, THE SAME SMALL TOWN IN STATESVILLE THERE’S MORE THAN RACE THAT CHARACTERIZES THOSE TWO CHURCHES. HOW DO YOU RECONCILE TWO GROUPS OF PEOPLE WHOSE UNDERSTANDING OF EVEN THE KIND OF WORSHIP THEY ARE DOING WHEN YOU THINK OF THE MUSIC, AND THE THINGS HAPPENING IN THE CHURCH IS SOCIALLY. HOW DO YOU RECOGNIZE THESE TWO CULTURES IF YOU WERE TO BRING THEM TOGETHER INTO ONE FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH? >>PART OF ME WONDERS IF WE SHOULD BRING THEM INTO ONE CHURCH. WE SHOULD BE HAVING CONVERSATION WITH ONE ANOTHER AS TO WHY WE ARE NOT TOGETHER OCCASIONALLY. WHY WE CANNOT BREAK BREAD TOGETHER OR SHARE A MEAL WITH ONE ANOTHER. I’M NOT ASKING PEOPLE TO CHANGE THE WAY THAT THEY HAVE WORSHIPED FOR THE PAST 150 YEARS. I’M ASKING YOU TO CONSIDER, AS A WHITE PEOPLE ESPECIALLY. WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO LOOK AT THE WAY WE HAVE ALWAYS DONE THINGS AND WONDER IF THERE IS A BETTER WAY? THE BETTER WAY MIGHT NOT BE BRINGING EVERYONE TOGETHER. THAT MIGHT NOT WORK. IT DOESN’T ALWAYS WORK TO SIT IN A CIRCLE AND SING COME BY OUR DIFFICULT CONVERSATION. UNNECESSARY CONVERSATION OF BRINGING PEOPLE TO THE TABLE WHERE THE TIMES THAT THIS HAPPENED PRESENTLY. I HAD A FRIEND THAT PASSED AWAY IN A CAR ACCIDENT 2009. AND WE HAD A PREDOMINATELY BLACK DRUM LINE, AND PLAY OUTSIDE THE CHURCH. THERE WAS A PRAY IN AT THE SAME SPOT WHERE THAT DRUM LINE PLAYED. YOU SEE WHAT I’M GETTING AT? SOME OF THESE THINGS THAT WE ARE TRYING TO MOVE OUR VERY SLOW. YOU ONLY NEED TO LOOK AT THE INSTITUTION TO SEE THAT SOME TIMES THINGS MOVE SLOWLY. AND THEN THERE ARE OTHER TIMES WHERE YOU SEE THE CHANGE HAPPENING IN REAL TIME. >>THE CONVERSATION HAS TO BE A LOT MORE EXTENSIVE THAN WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH THE CHURCH. HOW DO WE INITIATE THAT? >>I’M GOING TO TELL YOU THAT IT IS NOT EASY. LET ME PREFACE THIS BY SAYING IT IS NOT EASY. IT’S GOING TO START AT THE THANKSGIVING TABLE. THERE ARE PEOPLE IN MY FAMILY, GOD LOVE AND BLESS THEM. WHO THINK THAT ROBERT E LEE IS THE GREATEST MAN WHO WALKED THE EARTH SENSE OF JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF. THEY CANNOT STAND WHAT I AM DOING. THE EASIEST THING TO DO WOULD BE TO EAT OUR TURKEY OR HAM AND TALK ABOUT THE DUKE WINNING THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP. BUT THE NECESSARY THING TO DO, THE TASK THAT WE ARE CALLED TO DO, IS TO SIT THERE AND GO TO TOWN. TELLING THEM THIS IS WHO WE ARE. THAT’S JUST ONE EXAMPLE FOR ME PERSONALLY. YOU DON’T HAVE TO BE A LEAD IT TO GET WHAT I’M SAYING. YOU HAVE TO GET YOUR OWN FOLK. I’VE HAD SOME INCREDIBLE PEOPLE OF COLOR IN MY LIFE WHO HAVE HELPED PULL ME IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. WHITE PEOPLE IN THE ROOM, IT IS TIME FOR US TO GET OUR OWN PEOPLE AND SAYING ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. IT STARTS RIGHT THERE. >>IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THERE IS A COMPROMISE. WHEN YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT COMPROMISE, YOU HAVE TWO POLAR OPPOSITES. AND PEOPLE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO SAY I’M GOING TO GIVE UP SOMETHING. GIVING UP WHATEVER IN SEPARATE BEEN VERY DIFFICULT. WHEN I LOOK AT THE FACT THAT GIVING UP AND COMPROMISE IS ACROSS THE COLOR LINE THEN AS A BLACK PERSON I SOMETIMES GET VERY DEFENSIVE. IT SEEMS LIKE WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THE ONES EXPECTED TO GIVE UP AND COMPROMISE. WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THIS? THIS IS SOMETHING FROM A SPIRITUAL POINT THAT WE HAVE TO DO. WE HAVE TO BE WILLING TO GIVE UP AND COMPROMISE. IT SEEMS LIKE THE REAL TENSION IS THERE. HOW DO WE SAY THAT THANKSGIVING DINNER CAN BECOME A TERRIBLE FIGHT. AND I’M NOT SURE THAT FIGHTING IS PRODUCTIVE. HOW DO WE COMPROMISE? HOW DO WE GET TO THE POINT WHERE WE COMPROMISE? >>I CALL IT STRATEGIC RESISTANCE. IS IT WORTH IT? IS IT HOLY? WILL IT AFFECT CHANGE? IF IT IS. AND IF YOU CAN ANSWER YES TO ANY OF THOSE THINGS. IF WHAT YOU ARE DOING FROM A SPIRITUAL PERSPECTIVE HELPS AFFECT CHANGE IN SUCH A WAY THAT YOU ARE HELPING PEOPLE SEE A BROADER PERSPECTIVE, THEN IT IS WORTH IT. JESUS ALSO SAID SOMETHING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO DID NOT GET IT. HE SAID DUST OFF YOUR SANDALS AND WALK AWAY TO THE NEXT TOWN IF THEY DO NOT WANT YOU. HE ALSO SAID UP PROFIT ISN’T WELCOME IN HIS HOMETOWN. I HAVE PEOPLE IN MY HOMETOWN WHO WANT ME DEAD. I WOULD RATHER BE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY. I WOULD RATHER BE A DIFFERENT FOOTNOTE IN HISTORY THAN THAT OF MY UNCLE. AND THAT IS IMPORTANT TO ME. THAT IS WHY I AM HERE TODAY. I DON’T JUST DO THIS FOR GIGGLES. I DON’T COME OUT HERE TO MAKE YOU MAD, I COME OUT HERE BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN THE SALVATION AND THE CERTIFICATION OF THE WORLD. I BELIEVE THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE TO DO. NOT JUST WE AS WASHINGTON AND LEE, AND LEXINGTON AND VIRGINIA. WE AS THE WORLD, WE AS CHRISTIANS, WHAT EVER YOU ARE. THE WHOLE OF HUMANITY IS CALLED TO MAKE THIS PLACE BETTER. AND EVEN IF THAT MEANS WE HAVE TO GET INTO A FIGHT FOR IT. IF THAT FIGHT CAUSES PEOPLE TO OPEN THEIR EYES TO A NEW AND DIFFERENT WAY OF LIFE, THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS, THE BASIC RIGHTS WE BELIEVE ARE FOR ALL PEOPLE. OR THAT WE THOUGHT WERE FOR ALL PEOPLE. THEN IT IS WORTH IT. YOU ALSO HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE STRATEGIC RESISTANCE. IS IT GOING TO HURT YOU OR CAUSE YOUR MENTAL HEALTH TO GO DOWN. YOU HAVE TO DUST THE DUST OFF YOUR SANDALS. >>ONE THING THAT STRIKES ME. AND YOU SPEAK TO THIS IN YOUR MEMOIR IS LEADERSHIP. YOU CALL IT COURAGEOUS LEADERSHIP IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IT TAKES A LOT OF COURAGE TO DO WHAT YOU ARE DOING. HOW MANY OF US HAVE THAT KIND OF COURAGE. HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO STICK THEIR NECKS OUT WHERE THEY GET DEATH THREATS LIKE YOU AND YOUR WIFE HAVE. HOW DO WE PROMOTE THAT COURAGEOUS LEADERSHIP IN THE WORLD? >>I AM BIPOLAR. AND I SUFFER FROM MENTAL ILLNESS. IT’S SOMETHING THAT I DEAL WITH REGULARLY. PART OF ME THINKS THAT I AM CRAZY. IN THE MOMENTS OF CLARITY, IN THE MOMENTS WHEN IT MATTERS, IN THE MOMENTS WHEN I STOOD ON THE MTV STAGE ARE AT THE VIEW OR IN THE PULPIT THAT DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. PREACHED FROM. I REALIZE I AM NOT CRAZY. I’M JUST TRYING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE . I AM TRYING TO BE THE BEST ROBERT LEE I CAN BE. AND IF WE CAN DO THAT. IF WE CAN ABANDON ALL THOSE DOUBTS THAT WE HAVE. WHETHER IT’S A MENTAL ILLNESS OR SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS, OUR SEXUAL ORIENTATION, WHATEVER IT MAY BE. WHATEVER THAT SOCIETY HAS TOLD US WE ARE NOT GOOD OF. WHEN WE ABANDON THAT AND SAY I WOULD BE THIS PERSON, THAT IS WHEN THE CHANGE HAPPENS. WE ARE AUTHENTICALLY OURSELVES. ON THE FIRST PAGE OF MY BOOK. I QUOTE THE POET GALLOWAY. WHO SAYS IT’S NECESSARY TO RETEACH A THING IS A LOVELINESS. SOMETIMES IT’S NECESSARY TO RETEACH YOURSELF IT’S A LOVELINESS. EVERY TIME I GET A DEATH THREAT I THINK THIS IS THAT I’M HANGING UP MY HAT. AND THEN PROFESSOR CHAPMAN CALLS AND I SAID I HAVE TO GO. FORGIVE ME FOR GOING BACK TO SCRIPTURE, IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT. JEREMIAH SAID I WAS JUST A BOY. ESTHER DID NOT WANT TO DO IT. JESUS SAID LET THIS CUP PASS FROM ME, THEN THEY GOT UP AND DID THE WORK THAT NEEDED TO BE DONE. REGARDLESS OF THE SITUATIONS THAT THE SITUATIONS AFFECTED THEM. AND THAT IS HOW I GET THROUGH. THAT IS HOW I GET UP IN THE MORNING. I PUT MY PANTS ON LIKE THE REST OF YOU. BUT I JUST BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A REASON FOR IT SPECS AND YOU HAVE BEEN HERE TODAY HAVE ANY OF YOUR IDEAS BEEN CHANGED AT ALL? >>WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO WASHINGTON AND LEE. I CAME HERE THINKING I WOULD NOT BE ACCEPTED. OR THOUGHT I WOULD BE ACCEPTED IN THE WRONG WAY. I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE OH MY GOD, YOU ARE ROBERT LEE. I HAVE BEEN WARMLY WELCOMED BY FACULTY AND STUDENTS, BY THE ADMINISTRATION. AND THAT IS BEAUTIFUL. THAT MEANS YOU ARE REALLY PUTTING YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS. YOU ARE REALLY STARTING TO ENACT WHAT YOU’RE TRYING TO DO HAD MY FATHER OR GRANDFATHER COME HERE 40-50 YEARS AGO, IT WOULD’VE BEEN A DIFFERENT STORY. THEY MIGHT’VE HAD A PARADE FOR THEM. THIS IS A DIFFERENT TIME. AND IT REALLY IMPRESSES ME THAT YOU ARE ACTING UPON WHAT YOU SAID YOU WILL DO. >>YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU READ THE COMMISSION REPORT THIS MORNING. IT IS 88 PAGES. YOU ARE QUICK READER. >>IT WAS A LIGHT READ. >>DELIVER ANY SPECIFICS ABOUT THE COMMISSION REPORT THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS, OR TALK ABOUT? >>I WANT TO SAY THAT I’M VERY IMPRESSED BY ONE OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS THAT YOU NOT CHANGE HER NAME. I DO NOT THINK I WOULD’VE SAID THAT YEARS AGO WHEN I FIRST STARTED THIS. FOR WHILE I WAS LIKE YOU HAVE TO TEAR DOWN, WASHINGTON AND LEE HAS GOT TO GO , A LOT OF PEOPLE IN PROGRESSIVE CIRCLES ARE WRONG ABOUT THE FACT THAT IDOLATRY HAS GOT TO GO. THE WORSHIP HOW WE PORTRAY PRESIDENT AND CONFEDERATE GENERAL ROBERT E. LEE HAS GOT TO GO AND YOU SEE IT A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY THAN WHAT I SEE, BECAUSE I AM A LITTLE JADED BY VOCATION. >>I AGREE THAT IT’S A BEAUTIFUL PLACE. AND I WAS A MEMBER OF THE COMMISSION. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO FOR A LONG TIME IS FIGURE OUT IF WE HAD A CHARGE TO SPEAK TO THE SCHOOL? WE RECOMMENDED NO CHANGE AT THIS TIME I THINK THE GENERAL THOUGHT , I HAVE NOT SPOKEN PUBLICLY ABOUT THE COMMISSIONS THE WORKING. THERE SHOULD BE A GROUNDSWELL IN THE COMMUNITY TO DECIPHER A NAME CHANGE WE FELT RELUCTANT TO MAKE THAT RECOMMENDATION SHOULD BE IN A COMMUNITY DISCUSSION. DOES YOUR RESISTANCE HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOUR OWN REFUSAL TO CHANGE YOUR PERSONAL NAME? >>NO, I MY OWN ROBERT LEE. MY RELUCTANCE TO ENDORSE OR CHANGE HER NAME IS IN PART TO A QUOTE THAT I ADMIRE FROM DEAN AND SAM WELLS. WHO WAS THE DEAN OF CHAPEL HILL. HE SAID IT CANNOT BE HAPPY, MAKE A BEAUTIFUL. NOTHING ABOUT WHAT ROBERT E LEE DID IN THE CIVIL WAR IS HAPPY. THERE IS NOTHING. WERE NOT GOING TO ARGUE ABOUT THAT. I’M JUST GOING TO AND SAY THAT NOW. YOU CAN WRITE ME A LETTER LATER. NOTHING ABOUT WHAT HE DID DURING THE CIVIL WAR WAS HAPPY. NOTHING ABOUT WHAT HE DID WAS HAPPY. BUT YOUR RESPONSE TO IT, HOW EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU RESPONDS TO THE REALITIES AND COMPLEXITIES OF THAT TIME CAN BE BEAUTIFUL. IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE POETIC, IT DOESN’T HAVE TO BE PRETTY, BUT IT CAN BE REALLY BEAUTIFUL. BEAUTY IS NOT ALWAYS PRETTY. IT’S NOT ALWAYS TIED UP WITH A NICE BOW, AND LOOKS GOOD. IT IS HONEST, REAL, AUTHENTIC. SO YOUR RESPONSE TO THIS, WHETHER IT’S TO CHANGE THE NAME IS BEAUTIFUL. AS YOU SAID IF THAT’S GOING TO HAPPEN YOU WOULD WANTED TO COME FROM THE GROUNDSWELL UP. >>CORRECT, GOING INTO THE WORK OF THE COMMISSION. THE ONLY THING THAT WAS A CONCERN OF MINE WAS THAT THE NARRATIVE BE ONE THAT WAS NUANCED, AND NOT ONE THAT FAVORS THE LOST CAUSE IN ANY WAY. I WONDER IF YOU HAVE A NUANCED VISION OF THE UNDERSTANDING OF ROBERT E LEE IN THE PAST? , WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT. WITH A NUANCED DIVISION. SOMETHING THAT TROUBLED ME ABOUT THE NARRATIVE OF THE UNIVERSITY. THE NARRATIVE THAT WAS POPULAR ON THIS CAMPUS IF IT HAD BEEN WRITTEN INTO A HISTORY ESSAY WE WOULD’VE GIVEN IT A F. BECAUSE IT OMITTED THINGS THAT THEY DIDN’T WANT TO DEAL WITH. COINCIDENTALLY IN CONNECTION TO THE COMMISSION, OF LOCAL JOURNALIST IS A MEMBER OF THE CLASS OF 1973 PUBLISHED PRESIDENT AND CONFEDERATE GENERAL ROBERT E. LEE TESTIMONY BEFORE THE JOINT COMMISSION TESTIMONY. EVEN THOUGH MY AREA OF STUDY WAS 19th CENTURY U.S. HISTORY SOUTH I HAD NEVER SEEN THAT BEFORE. IT WAS A REALLY EYE-OPENING ACCOUNTANT TO READ. SOMETHING THAT WAS HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT. IN THAT TESTIMONY THERE WAS ADVOCACY FOR REMOVING ALL BLACKS FROM THE STATE OF VIRGINIA. AND THERE WAS A PROBLEM FOR A LOT OF US WITH YOU THROW THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATHWATER. SO IF YOU’RE LOOKING AT A NUANCED VISION. EVERYONE LIVING DOES GOOD AND BAD THINGS. >>I SEE WHAT YOU’RE SAYING. I THINK I HAVE A NUANCED VERSION AND A VISION OF THE PERSONHOOD OF ROBERT E LEE. THERE’S A PRETTY DAMNING VISION OF THE CARICATURE OF ROBERT E LEE THAT HAS BEEN CREATED SINCE THE 1920S ESPECIALLY MAYBE EARLIER IN VIRGINIA I THINK THAT WHAT HAS HAPPENED WITH THE ROBERT E LEE IS AS I SAID WE’VE MADE HIM A IDOL OF WHITE SUPREMACY IT’S CLEAR TO ME WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO WITH IDOLS. YOU CANNOT HAVE IDOLS. IT DOESN’T NEGATE THE FACT THAT THERE WAS A MAN NAMED ROBERT E LEE. WHO DID SOME GOOD THINGS AND DID SOME BAD THINGS. IF YOU SEPARATE THE PERSON FROM THE CARICATURE. THE FACT THAT ROBERT E LEE WROTE LETTERS ABOUT NOT PUTTING UP STATUES, I’M OKAY WITH THAT. VERSUS THE CARICATURE OF HIM IN THE CHAPEL. THAT’S A VERY DIFFERENT VERSION. IT IS ALL IN HOW WE READ HISTORY AND UNDERSTAND HISTORY. HOW WE REALIZE THE PERSONHOOD VERSUS THE IDOLATROUS CHARACTER? >>DO YOU HAVE RECOMMENDATIONS FOR US AS WE MOVE FORWARD? >>I’M GOING TO SCOOT OVER HERE. I’M KIDDING. MY HOPE AND PRAYER FOR YOU IS THAT YOU WILL BE HONEST WITH YOURSELVES. I AM NOT SAYING THAT YOU ARE LYING TO YOURSELVES NOW. I HOPE YOU BRING PEOPLE ON, FACULTY AND STAFF THAT ARE PEOPLE OF INTEGRITY AND TRUTH TELLING. I TELL THE STORY MY BOOK, FROM THE AGE OF 1-4 MY PARENTS HIRED A NURSE TO CARE FOR ME. SHE WAS A BLACK WOMAN IN HER 60s OR 70s. IT WAS RIGHT OUT OF “THE HELP”. MY PEERS DIDN’T MEAN ANYTHING BAD BY THAT, THAT’S JUST WHAT WE DID. SHE WOULD NOT DRINK OUT OF THE SAME CLASS AS ME. SHE WOULD NOT EAT LEFTOVERS OF MY FOOD. OR SHE WOULD NOT EVEN EAT WITH ME AT THE SAME TABLE. WHEN MY PARENTS ASKED HER WHY, SHE SAID THAT’S WHAT I HAVE BEEN TAUGHT WHEN I WOULD ASK HER WHY SHE WOULDN’T EAT WITH ME, SHE SAID WE WERE DIFFERENT. IT KILLS ME TO THIS DAY. WE ARE DIFFERENT BUT I BELIEVE IN A GOD WHO IS ALL ABOUT BRINGING DIFFERENCES TOGETHER. BRINGING BEAUTIFUL DIFFERENT THINGS THAT MAY BE BROKEN TOGETHER. THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT. THAT IS WHY WE ARE HERE TO FIND EACH OTHER AND LOVE EACH OTHER. THAT IS THE HEART OF EVERYTHING THAT WE DO. THAT IS THE HEART OF A RELIGION. AND WHY YOU STUDY THINGS, NOT SO YOU CAN GET A GOOD DEGREE, AND A GOOD JOB. THOSE THINGS ARE GOOD AND GREAT, DO IT, STAY IN SCHOOL. IT SO THAT YOU CAN FIND YOURSELF AND LOVE YOURSELF AND LOVE OTHERS. THAT IS THE POINT . THAT IS THE HOPE. >>ONE THING THAT CONCERNS ME, THAT HAS CONCERNED ME FOR 25 YEARS. YOU TOUCHED ON THIS A LITTLE BIT IN YOUR BOOK. AS A FACULTY MEMBER WHO FOCUSED ON 19th CENTURY AMERICAN SOUTH. I WAS VERY UNCOMFORTABLE AND FELT UNSAFE ASKING CRITICAL QUESTIONS ABOUT ROBERT E LEE. FOR MOST OF MY CAREER I DID THAT. AND I FOUND THAT THE EVENTS OF 2017 MADE IT SAFER TO ASK THOSE QUESTIONS. YOU SEEM TO SUGGEST IN YOUR MEMOIR THAT 2017 WAS A PIVOTAL POINT WITH REGARD TO YOUR THINKING. CAN YOU EXPAND ON THAT? >>IN 2017 I WAS SERVING A CHURCH IN WINSTON SALEM, NORTH CAROLINA. THERE WERE ABOUT 25 MEMBERS. VERY NICE PEOPLE. THE FIRST SUNDAY I WAS THERE I WAS SITTING IN ON A SUNDAY SCHOOL CLASS AND ONE OF THE TEACHERS SAID THAT HE SAW A WHITE OFFICER CHANGING A BLACK WOMAN’S TIRE AND THEREFORE RACISM WAS A DEAD. I HAD NOT DETECTED THAT. , AND IN 15 DAYS LATER I WAS ON THE STAGE AT THE VMA AND 10 DAYS LATER I LOST MY JOB. BECAUSE THE SAME PEOPLE WHO SAID THAT RACISM IS DEAD WERE SOME OF THE MOST RACIST PEOPLE I HAVE EVER MET. CHARLOTTESVILLE CHANGED EVERYTHING. THERE ARE SOME OF US IN THE ROOM THAT ARE OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER WHEN KENNEDY WAS SHOT, 9/11, CHARLOTTESVILLE IS ONE OF THOSE EVENTS. I REMEMBER WHERE I WAS, AND WHAT I WAS DOING, AND THE HEARTBREAK OF REALIZING THAT ROBERT E LEE WAS AT THE CENTER OF IT. THAT THAT STATUE THE PEOPLE WERE MAKING INTO AN IDOL WAS MY UNCLE. I WAS ANGRY, I KNOW THAT WE ARE CHANGING THINGS IT WAS A HORRIFIC EVENT. AND THE MOTHER OF HEATHER AND I HAVE BECOME GREAT FRIENDS. CHANGED EVERYTHING. AND I THINK I KNOW WHY. YOU CAN DISAGREE I THINK IT’S BECAUSE RACISM WAS AFFECTING A WHITE GIRL. IT WAS NO LONGER FOR PEOPLE OF COLOR. THOUGH WHITE SUPREMACIST KILLED A WHITE GIRL. AND SUDDENLY IT WAS OH CRAP. IT’S TIME TO TALK ABOUT IT. THAT’S WHEN IT CHANGES WHEN IT AFFECTS THE WHITE PEOPLE IN THE ROOM. HE START TO SQUARE BECAUSE IT AFFECTS YOU AND MAKES YOU UNCOMFORTABLE. AND THAT IS WHY CHARLOTTESVILLE CHANGED FOR SO MANY PEOPLE. >>LET’S TALK ABOUT IDOLATRY A LITTLE BIT. ONE THING THAT YOU KNOW, IN THE EARLY PART OF THE 20th CENTURY THE HEROIC SIZES STATUES LIKE THE ONE IN CHARLOTTE BEGAN TO APPEAR. AND I BELIEVE THE STATUTE ON MONUMENT ARE EVEN BIGGER. I’VE NEVER SEEN THE ONE IN CHARLOTTESVILLE. BUT I HAVE SEEN THE ONES IN RICHMOND. A LOT OF THOSE THINGS WENT UP. NOT ONLY DID THEY GO UP, BUT AS A PERSON INVOLVED IN PUTTING THEM UP IN THE EARLY PART OF THE 20th CENTURY WROTE THEY WERE WRITING HISTORY. WHAT YOU DO WITH THOSE STATUES? THERE ARE A LOT OF SCHOLARS AND PEOPLE IN MY PROFESSION WHO OBJECT TO REMOVING THEM, BECAUSE THE STATUES ARE HISTORY WITH REGARD TO THE IDOLATRY HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THE STATUES THAT ARE BIGGER THAN LIFE. EVEN THE IDEA OF TAKING THE STATUES AWAY WOULD BE A TREMENDOUS CHALLENGE FOR PEOPLE. WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THE IDOLATRY? >>I THINK IT’S EASY TO SAY TAKE THE STATUES DOWN. YOU HAVE TO THINK OF THE REASONING BEHIND WHY WE WANT TO DEAL WITH THAT. IN MY HOMETOWN OF STATESVILLE THERE IS A CONFEDERATE MEMORIAL THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO WALK BY EVERY TIME THEY GO TO VOTE, GO TO THE COURTHOUSE, GO TO CHURCH. I’M NOT A LAW PERSON BUT IS THAT FAIR OR EQUAL? IF YOU’RE GOING TO GET BEYOND THE EMPATHY YOU HAVE TO BE EDUCATED BY IT. YOU DON’T HAVE TO GO FAR FROM MY HOMETOWN TO GET TO CHAPEL HILL WHERE SILENT SAM HAS BEEN CAUSING ISSUES FOR PEOPLE THERE. SILENT SAM GOT PULLED DOWN BY PEOPLE IN NORTH CAROLINA. A RAMBUNCTIOUS BUNCH OF PEOPLE IN CHAPEL HILL. I DO NOT THINK THERE IS A BLANKET ANSWER. I REALLY DON’T. WHAT DO YOU DO WITH MONUMENT AVENUE. SOME PEOPLE HAVE TRIED TO FIX MONUMENT HAPPENED. IT’S A SITUATIONAL THING THAT I HOPE WE CAN FIGURE OUT TOGETHER.>>ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS BEEN SUGGESTED BY HISTORIANS IF YOU PLACE THE STATUES IN CONTEXT. IF THERE’S SOME WAY TO PROVIDE HISTORY AND EXPLAIN THE PERIOD OF WHEN THE MONUMENTS WERE GOING UP IN THE BACK STORY OF THAT. WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THAT? >>IT’S BETTER THAN NOTHING. I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE THEM ALL DOWN SO THE CONTEXT MAY HELP TURN THE TIDE TO THE POINT WHERE WE GET TO THE GROUND SWELL CREATES SOME CONVERSATION.>>SOMETHING THAT JUST POPPED IN MY MIND, IN REGARDS TO TAKING STUFF DOWN. IT’S THE BOOK ON WHITE HISTORY. >>I LIKE MY BOOK BETTER. I THINK THE MORE PERSPECTIVE THAT WE HAVE IN TERMS, I’M KIDDING THAT SOUNDED REALLY BAD.>>YOU’RE GOING TO THINK BADLY OF ME. >>I DID ENJOY THAT BOOK. IT’S AN IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE WITH VOICES, WHATEVER WAY WE CAN COMMUNICATE AND ENGAGE IN THAT CONVERSATION OF WHAT IT MEANS TO CONFRONT A HISTORY AND A LEGACY. IT’S ACTUALLY NOT JUST FOR PEOPLE WHO LOOK, SOUND, OR TALK LIKE ME. I KNOW SOME OF YOU HAVING CONVERSATIONS SURROUNDING JUST MERCY. >>ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE ACKNOWLEDGED, YOU AND I ARE BOTH SOUTHERNERS. WE HAVE THAT BURDEN OF SOUTHERN HISTORY. I THINK THE PROBLEM THAT I SEE IS THAT BLACK AND WHITE SOUTHERNERS WHO LIVED SO CLOSE TOGETHER EVEN IN SMALL TOWNS HAVE RUBBER DAYS NEVER KNOWN EACH OTHER. >>I DO NOT KNOW. I THINK IN STATESVILLE I’VE HAD THE GREAT PRIVILEGE OF HAVING WONDERFUL STRONG WOMEN OF COLOR IN MY LIFE. I DO NOT THINK IT WAS SPECIFIC. I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT. I WILL TELL YOU THIS STORY. MY OWN MOTHER IS A NURSE. SHE HAS A DOCTORATE IN NURSING SHE TEACHES AND DOES ALL THIS GREAT STUFF. BUT BACK IN THE 1980S SHE WAS WORKING IN A PERSON OF COLOR CAME INTO THE HOSPITAL. AND HE WAS AN LGBT GAME MAN WHO HAD BEEN DIAGNOSED WITH AIDS AND WAS ACTIVELY DYING. NO ONE IN THAT HOSPITAL EXCEPT FOR MY MOTHER WOULD GIVE HIM A SPONGE BATH. BECAUSE HE WAS THE FIRST CASE, PEOPLE HAD NO IDEA. THEY DIDN’T UNDERSTAND AND THEY WERE TERRIFIED. MY MOM WAS WILLING TO TAKE A RISK. SHE RISKED SOMETHING BIG FOR SOMETHING GOOD. EVEN THOUGH THAT MAN DIED OF AIDS HE DIED WITH DIGNITY BECAUSE SOMEBODY WAS WILLING TO CARE FOR HIM. WHAT WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO DO IN THESE A SMALL TOWNS LIKE LEXINGTON IN STATESVILLE IS RISK OF SOMETHING BIG FOR SOMETHING GOOD. IT DOES NOT MEAN YOU COME IN WITH PLATITUDES AND SPONGE BATHS. BUT IT DOES MEAN THAT YOU COME IN AND INVITE EACH OTHER TO THE BARBECUE. AND YOU HAVE THOSE CONVERSATIONS AND DO WHAT WE ARE DOING NOW. AND YOU FIND THAT COMMON GROUND. WE MAY HAVE THINGS WE DISAGREE WITH BUT YOU ARE HERE YOU SHOWED UP. AND SHOWING UP IS HALF THE BATTLE. >>ONE THING THAT YOU SAID BEFORE YOU MENTIONED YOUR MEMOIR IS EXPERIENCES WAS STRONG WOMEN OF COLOR. WHAT ABOUT STRONGMEN OF COLOR? >>WELL I AM SPEAKING TO ONE RIGHT NOW. I’VE HAD REALLY GREAT MEN OF COLOR. I’M ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE THAT RESPOND BETTER TO WOMEN AND THEIR MENTORSHIP. AND I’VE HAD THAT OPPORTUNITY. I AM GRATEFUL TO THE MEN WHO HAVE BEEN THERE. >>I THINK WE CAN OPEN UP FOR QUESTION AND ANSWERS. I HATE TO CUT YOU OFF. WE ONLY HAVE THE RENTAL 4 PM. ARE THERE ANY QUESTIONS? JUST STAND UP AND THEN I WILL RESTATE THE QUESTION. >>>THE QUESTION IS DO YOU BELIEVE IS A PERSON OF FAITH THAT NOT HAVING TO DEFEND THE ACTIONS AND JUST ACCEPT THE MANAFORT HAS MADE IT EASIER TO RECONCILE? >>I THINK IT’S MADE IT HARDER. THERE ARE CONFEDERAL IT FROGS EVERYWHERE. THERE WAS ONE IN MY BEDROOM GROWING UP. I THINK WHAT MAKES IT WORTH IT IS KNOWING THAT THERE WILL BE A SMALL FOOTNOTE IN HISTORY THAT SAYS THAT THERE WAS A ROBERT W LEE WHO DID SOMETHING A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT. I’M NOT DOING IT FOR GLORY OR WHATEVER. I AM DOING IT BECAUSE IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. IN THE END, HISTORY WILL JUDGE MY ACTIONS. THANK YOU. >>>HOW DO WE STEP AWAY FROM THE IDEA THAT THE JUSTICES ONLY WRONG WHEN IT HAPPENS TO A WHITE PERSON? >>WHEN I LOST MY JOB IN AUGUST OF 2017. I WAS DEVASTATED. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MY WIFE IS THE MOST AMAZING LADY POINTED OUT TO ME. POINTED OUT THAT YOU’RE GOING TO FIND SOMETHING ELSE. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO MAY NOT. I THINK ABOUT THAT A LOT. WE HAD TO GET OUT OF THIS NARRATIVE IT’S ALL ABOUT ME AND MY TRIBE. IT’S NOT JUST ABOUT US, IT’S ABOUT EVERYBODY. AND IT’S NOT AN ANSWER THEM MENTALITY. IT’S AN US TOGETHER. HOW DO WE HAVE THAT TOGETHERNESS AS A COLLECTIVE WITHOUT ASSIMILATING. DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? I CAN ACCESS, YOU CAN’T ASSIMILATE, BUT YOU HAVE TO REALIZE THAT WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER. >>ONE OF THE PROJECTS WAS STUDYING DESEGREGATION. AND THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY COMMITTEE ON THE COMMEMORATION OF THE 50th CELEBRATION ASKED IF WASHINGTON AND LEE COULD DO SOMETHING. WE HAD ALREADY DONE SOMETHING WITH THE FORUM. SO I COULD SEE THE ORAL HISTORY PROJECT. IT WAS VERY INTERESTING, IN THE DIFFERENCES IN WHITE AND BLACK VIEWS IN THIS PART OF VIRGINIA THAT HAD A SMALL BLACK POPULATION. IS VERY DIFFERENT AND VERY INTERESTING. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I WOULD LIKE TO ATTEND TO YOUR QUESTION THAT CAME UP IN ROB’S REMARKS WITH REGARDS TO ONE OF THE QUESTIONS FROM THE AUDIENCE. ONE THING THAT PEOPLE DO NOT REALIZE. THE LATER PART OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, THE PART IN THE 1960S COINCIDES WITH THE CENTENNIAL OF THE CIVIL WAR. IN THE NEWS IT OVERSHADOWS ANYTHING ABOUT THE CENTENNIAL OF THE CIVIL WAR. WHEN I WAS GROWING UP IN LEXINGTON, VIRGINIA. YOU NEVER SAW A CONFEDERATE FLAG. THERE ARE MORE CONFEDERATE FLAGS IN LEXINGTON, VIRGINIA THAN EVER BEFORE. WHEN I WAS GROWING UP IN LEXINGTON VIRGINIA AND OTHER PARTS OF THE SOUTH, THOSE CONFEDERATE FLAGS CAME OUT AS PART OF THE COMMEMORATION OF THE CENTENNIAL OF THE CIVIL WAR. AND THEN IT ENDED UP THAT THEY STAYED AROUND BECAUSE PEOPLE ADOPT THEM AS A RESISTANCE TO CIVIL RIGHTS. AND THE FACT THAT I CAME OF AGE IN THE 1950s, IN 1961, CONFEDERATE FLAGS WERE VIRTUALLY INVISIBLE UNLESS SHE WENT INTO LEE CHAPEL. THE RESURRECTION OF CONFEDERATE FLAGS, ESPECIALLY IN LEXINGTON, PLACES WHERE THEY HAD NEVER BEEN BEFORE. IT’S ASTONISHING. AND YOU ALSO HAVE TO QUESTION THE REASONS THAT THEY ARE THERE. I THINK TO ASK THOSE QUESTIONS IS VERY IMPORTANT. AND WE ARE OUT OF TIME. >>>THE QUESTION IS HOW DO WE REACH THE PEOPLE WHO WILL NOT COME TO THE TABLE? >>THIS IS BEEN A FAIRLY CALM TALK HERE IS THE DEAL. I THINK THAT WE ALL HAVE A PLATFORM. SOME PEOPLE COME TO TALK TO HEAR THIS GUY TALK SOMETIMES IT’S BAIT AND SWITCH IN ALL SERIOUSNESS, I THINK IT COMES DOWN TO WHAT ARE YOU WILLING TO DO? AS A WHITE PERSON? ARE YOU WILLING TO GO OUT TO THE HIGHWAYS AND THE SMALL TOWNS IN THE BIG CITIES, NOT JUST THE SOUTH, WISCONSIN, MICHIGAN, CALIFORNIA, AND SAY LOOK? YOU MAY THINK THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM YOU MAY THINK IT DOESN’T EXIST, BUT I HAVEN’T SEEN SOMETHING. I’M A PREACHER SOMEBODY IN ON THIS. SOME OF THE MOST PROFOUND AND PROLIFIC LINES IN THE SCRIPTURE ARE AFTER THE RESURRECTION. I HAVE SEEN THE LORD. WHAT THEY SAW WAS SOMETHING DIFFERENT. SOMETHING THAT THEY HAD NOT SEEN BEFORE AND THEY WANTED TO SHARE IT SO WHAT YOU CAN DO TODAY, YOU HAVE SEEN SOMETHING HERE. IT’S NOT ABOUT ME. IT’S NOT ABOUT ROBERT LEE, AND IT’S NOT A ROBERT E LEE. THE MOST AMAZING THING IS THAT TWO PEOPLE WHO CAME FROM VERY DIFFERENT WAYS OF LIFE, DIFFERENT UP BRINGING’S CAN SIT DOWN AND SAY SOMETHING THAT WAS INTERESTING. YOU HAVE SEEN SOMETHING AND NOW IT’S INCUMBENT UPON YOU TO GO UNTIL OTHERS. IT DOESN’T MATTER IF THEY DON’T WANT TO LISTEN THEY HAVE TO HEAR YOU. KEEP SHOUTING, BE PERSISTENT. WE GET IN THE MINDSET WHERE WE SAY WE CAN ONLY SAY ONCE. YOU CAN SAY THIS MANY TIMES UNTIL THEY START TO LISTEN. THAT IS THE BEAUTY AND THE CHALLENGE OF WHAT WE HAVE TO DO. >>THANK YOU. >>STEPHANIE IS GOING TO CLOSE. BEFORE EVERYONE GOES HIS BOOK COMES OUT ON APRIL 2, ANY OTHER NAME: A RECKONING WITH SOUTH ON AMAZON FOR PREORDER. >>I WANT TO THANK EVERYONE FOR COMING, AND THINK REV. LEE, PROFESSOR DELANEY, PROFESSOR CHATMAN . DEAN MASON FOR THE CONTINUED SUPPORT. AND MANY OTHER PEOPLE BEHIND THE SCENES THAT I CANNOT NAME. THANK YOU ALL.

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