Doug Stauffer: Salvation in the Tribulation

Doug Stauffer: Salvation in the Tribulation


>Some people are saying that
you can’t get saved during the tribulation.
What does the Bible say? Well, let’s talk about that.>And to talk about it, we have with
us in studio today Doug
Stauffer. Hi, Doug. Good to have you here.
>>Oh, it’s great to be here
with you, Gary, and looking forward to another
great program.>We’ve got an
interesting question right up front, and of
course, that’ll be followed by
several other interesting
questions, but there’s a discussion today
about A) will the church go through the
tribulation or not? And B) If the antichrist arises during
the tribulation, and everything
just goes completely wrong. Is it possible to get
saved if you don’t go in the rapture
and you’re thrust into the tribulation? Are you
lost forever? And we hear those
discussions all the time. So, what’s your
reaction?>>Well, I mean, the
scripture’s very clear on it. My Bible’s open to
Revelation, but I’m gonna jump over to Matthew
chapter 24. There’s a spiritual
salvation, a physical
salvation, as we both know, but here’s the promise.
You know, it’s talking about when is the end of the
world there in verse 3, when he was on the Mount of
Olives. There’s going to be
rumors of wars, famines, earthquakes,
pestilence, beginning of
sorrows, and so on. But when you get down to verse
13, “But he that shall endure
the end, same shall be saved.”
Well, you say was that physical or,
you don’t, but the audience
might. Is that physical or spiritual
salvation? Well, it’s a
physical salvation because when
you go over to verse 21, it says,
“For then shall be great
tribulations, such as not since
the beginning of the world, this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days be
shortened there shall no flesh be saved.” So the context is
flesh being saved and therefore, flesh being saved. So that’s a
physical salvation. The question is, is there a spiritual
salvation too though? The
spiritual salvation, I think, is in Revelation chapter 6. The Bible talks about those in
heaven. It’s a picture in
heaven or things that are going on. “When he had opened
the fifth seal, I saw under the
altar the souls of them that were slain for the Word of
God and for the testimony which
they held. And they cried with a loud
voice saying, How long, O Lord? Holy and
true, dost thou not judge and
avenge our blood on them that dwell on the
earth? White robes were given
unto every one of them, it was said unto them that they
should rest for a little season until their
fellow servants also and their
brethren that should be killed as they were should
be fulfilled.” So there’s
felllow servants on the earth. Well,
the 144,000 can’t be them. It’s not simply two witnesses that
will be killed, so there is a great multitude that’s
probably going to be saved
during the tribulation. It won’t be church age saints,
because they’re already saved
and we’re raptured out, so we’re not here, and there
will be people saved. And then over in Revelation 7, verse 13,
“One of the elders answered saying unto me, What
are these which are arrayed in
white robes? Whence came they? And I said unto him, sir,
thou knowest…” that’s John.
“He said to me, these are they which
came out of great tribulation and have washed
their robes and made them white
in the blood of the Lamb.” So there’s a great
multitude there. Verse 9, I think I should have read
too. “After this, I beheld
there was a great multitude
which no man could number of all nations,
kindreds, people, and tongues.”
But the context is they came
through the tribulation. So
there’s a multitude in heaven. Revelation 6 and 7 make it very
clear that that multitude isn’t physically saved. They
don’t endure the end, because
they lost their lives. See, a physical salvation –
Matthew 24. Spiritual salvation
– Revelation 6, Revelation 7. So
the answer is unequivocally there’ll be many saved in the
tribulation.>And looking at my
Bible here, they are of all nations.
>>Absolutely.>And they are so
large in number that you can’t calculate
their number, huge mass of people. Nations, kindreds, and
people and tongues. This would include virtually everybody on planet
earth. We’re not talking about
Jews here. These would be Gentiles from all nations.
>>Right.>So an incalculable number of
people will be saved during the tribulation.>>Sure. And
you know, people say, “Well,
it’s an escapist doctrine, this
pre-tribulation rapture.” I
don’t agree. Now, I’ll tell you personally, I don’t want to
be here during the tribulation.
We both made that point. However, you know, it’s almost
like there’s gonna be a time when there’s going to be a
lot of people saved, but they’re gonna lose
their life. So here they are. They reject the
mark of the beast, and because of that, they can’t
buy or sell, and they die! And they probably have
their head chopped off, most likely, the
guillotine or all that, the
sword.>Yeah, there’s a
reference to that.>>It’s gonna happen. So would I like to be here? No.
Would I like to be here? Yes. I’d love to be here
and see such a great revival of
sorts, but everyone you stop from
taking the mark loses their head pretty much.
People say we ought to be
preparing. You ought to be preparing, and
I agree. We ought to be
preparing. We have a better reason to prepare because of
the pre-tribulation rapture
than if we were going in the tribulation.
Here’s why. If you’re going in
the tribulation, you don’t take the mark of the
beast, you lose your head,
you’re in Heaven. Or you prepare and hide and run and shoot everybody that
comes near you, and you know, whatever they’re
gonna do, I don’t know. It’s a
terrible, terrible time. And you want to really live
through that? No! The sooner you die in the tribulation, the
sooner you’re in this multitude
here, and there’s gonna be a multitude. We need to be
preparing our hearts, minds, soul, and our physical
belongings for the period of
time that’s coming before the tribulation
on the church. It’s gonna be a
terrible time before the tribulation.
>Jesus, actually, looking forward to this time, talked
about those who would be
preaching the gospel of the kingdom in the tribulation. And
we read about the 144,000 who are sealed, I
think, for the specific purpose
of going forth and evangelizing. They
will become God’s evangelists, and
we don’t know exactly how all
that works, except that a lot of people
will get saved. As you were talking, it occurred to
me. Let’s take a little bit of
a detour here. I didn’t plan on this, but
let’s talk about getting saved
right now. What does that mean? Maybe
there’s somebody watching right now who is saying,
“saved…saved. You know, I hear this term. What does that
really mean?” What does it mean
to you? >>Well, what I would say is
okay, we were talking Matthew
24, and we were talking about
physical salvation…totally
different from what we’re
getting ready to discuss now. We’re talking about people
that lose their life in the
tribulation, and there in that great
multitude…we’re talking about
something totally different now. We’re talking about the
church age, and that’s why you
have to make these distinctions. That’s why you have to be a
dispensationalist.>So, you’re
making a point that the conditions under which we
live now are utterly different
than they will be at that time. We
live in an age that’s commonly known as the age of
grace, and wow…do we ever! The grace of God is
fantastic.>>It is.>And we have the opportunity to make
decisions, to make choices, we have been greatly blessed. Even
those who are really not followers of the Lord Jesus
Christ have been indirectly
blessed by the presence, I think, of the
church. Those days may be
waning. And I think there may not be
much time to join the ranks of the saved.
Let’s talk about how you do that.>>Well,
basically, you know…I mean,
I’ve written a whole 400-page book
on it, on salvation by grace.>We don’t have time
for that right now. (Laughter)
>>We can’t go through the whole
400 pages, but you know, in the context,
it’s what does a person have to
realize in order to be saved? Number
one, you’re a sinner. Number
two, Christ came and died for sinners. God
the Son left heaven’s glory, was born of a virgin so that
God actually put on human flesh. God can’t die, but
there has to be a sacrifice. The Old
Testament pictured that final sacrifice of Christ.
Well, that sacrifice was Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary,
shedding his blood for our sins, and if we’ll
trust in Him, he will wash us clean, take
away all our sins, and make us a child of God, and
we become a new creature in
Christ Jesus. >His death substituted the death that I would have to die
throughout eternity. He died in my place and took upon
himself my sins in advance and said,
“Follow me.” You know, it’s a very simple
thing really…>>It is.>…when you get right
down to it. And yet, it’s the most important thing in the
world.>>It is. I mean, the
Bible says, “For the wages of sin is
death.” So you see, Jesus Christ couldn’t die because he didn’t have any sin,
so he took our sin upon him.
The Bible says “He became sin for us who knew
no sin, that we might be made the
righteousness of God in Him.”
“The wages of sin is death, but the gift
of God is eternal life through
Jesus Christ our Lord.” So he says
it’s a free gift, and that gift is not something you
earn, Gary. It’s something
that’s given to you undeserved, unmerited. That’s
why it’s the grace and mercy that saves you. It’s a free
gift. You take it upon yourself
by accepting Lord as Savior.>And it’s easy.
All you have to do is recognize it and say, “I want
to become part of that,” and
receive Christ. It’s really a voluntary
decision.>>It is. It’s not
something that God forces upon anybody.
Think about the God of the universe, and I know you know
this. I say to you, think about the God of the
universe. He can make you do,
he could make you a puppet and just pull
the string and your arm would
go. He can do that, but he chooses not to.
Why not? Because he wants you
to freely come to him, and then once
you’ve come to him, he wants you to freely live for him. And as
you live for him, you glorify God because you would
be nothing without that salvation given to you as a
free gift from the Savior.
That’s what’s so miraculous about the whole
thing, Gary.>And not only
during the church age, but even on beyond that into
the tribulation. A decision for Christ, it will
still be possible.>>Yes.>The consequences will
be radical at that time. There will be martyrdom, I
think in the hundreds of
thousands if not the millions, and it’s a sad thing
to think about, but
nevertheless, salvation will be a fact. Something else
will be a fact in the
tribulation, and that’s the antichrist. At a
certain point, coming out of war, famine, pestilence,
economic collapse, disease, the whole thing…out
of all that will come a dictator who will call
himself God, and he will stand up and say, “I
can fix it. I can make all this
okay. All you have to do is follow me,
and by the way, I want you to indicate the fact
that you’re following me by
taking a mark.” And people will say, “Yes, I’ll
take the mark.” Now, let’s talk about that.
When you take the mark, what
happens to you?>>Well, those that take the
mark, the Bible says they’re
condemned. There’s no second chances. You
have determined to sell your soul for that mark.
Now you can buy and sell and get gain. You can do those
things. There isn’t…”well, I can take the mark and then I
have another chance.” No, it
isn’t the grace of God anymore. You have made a
decision, and that decision is the ultimate decision.
You’ve rejected Jesus Christ in the tribulation. And
it’s Jesus Christ. God’s going back to the Jews,
but it’s not going to be the
Jews of the Old Testament. It’s gonna be the Jews in Jesus
Christ. The testimony of Jesus Christ is mentioned in
Revelation. That’s not the
church. The testimony of Jesus Christ is a
Jewish believer or any believer
in the tribulation, so if they, anybody takes the mark, they
cannot be saved, because the
Bible’s very clear. The mark is
definitive. It’s it. >Some have said the mark may be
of such a nature that it makes some kind of a
physical change in you that
can’t be reversed. I don’t know that
that’s true, but if not a
physical change, certainly a spiritual
change that cannot be reversed.
>>Right.>And there is damnation
involved. That is, ultimate judgment involved with
that mark.>>Let me say this
too, because I need to clarify this – you
can’t be forced to take the
mark, because it’s take the mark and worship the beast, so
somebody holds somebody down,
forces that mark upon them, they’re
not worshiping the beast. It’s in conjunction with the two.
It’s a spiritual thing.>It’s a
voluntary thing.>>Absolutely.>Much like the
decision to receive Christ is a voluntary thing.
>>Absolutely. Yes.>Wow. So,
moving right along, let’s talk a bit
about the situation that we have
right now in the world today. Everybody I talk to, the sacred, the secular, the
entire world seems to be
collapsing. We seem to be living in the
last of the last days, You and I both believe in a
pre-tribulation rapture of the
church, that will be followed by a time of judgment unlike the world has
ever seen before. How can we view all this correctly? That
is to say, how can we convey this to our friends and
neighbors, the seriousness of
the times in which we live?>>Well, I
think, you know, I don’t even know if it’s something different. I mean, I
think we should’ve been doing
this all along, but Christians have
a tendency to when things get rough, they get
busy. When persecution comes, Acts chapter
8, the church is spread abroad, preaching the Word.>RIght.
>>The problem is, persecution generally brings a time when people get right with the Lord.
Unfortunately, that’s the days we’re in. There’s
going to be persecution. I
believe that it’s, there’s gonna be a
remnant of Christians that are
serious about the Lord. They’re watching,
they’re waiting, they’re looking for that blessed hope,
but they’re busy. I tell people you need to wait,
watch, but you need to be working. We’re told that
in Ephesians. “For by grace, ye is saved through faith, not of
yourselves, the gift of God,
not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his
workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works.” I tell
people look, we need to be
working. And that’s what I tell
people. Look, the persecution’s gonna
bring people working for the Lord, but they
need to be doing that today.
They don’t need to wait until things really fall apart. And
they’re gonna fall apart. It’s
gonna get really bad out there.>Let’s talk for a
minute and just announce our new magazine called the
Prophecy Watcher. I’ve got a
mock-up of the cover right here, and we’re
going to begin publishing this magazine in September. And up
until July 31st, we’re making a
special offer for our viewers, and that is
that you can get a lifetime
subscription to the Prophecy Watcher. And by
the way, it’s going to be a
fully produced, full color magazine with
articles, book reviews, all kinds of special
features and things that we’ll
be talking about later. We’ll have guest authors. I’ll be writing in it,
of course. Bob will be doing his book reviews and other
features. We’ll have guest
authors like LA Marzulli and Tom Horn, Avi
Lipkin, Ken Johnson, and maybe Doug
Stauffer.>>I would be honored to write for the
Prophecy Watcher.>And the whole theme of the Prophecy
Watcher is just as the title
implies, to watch the development of
prophetically interesting
things and that would cover the entire
gamut from things like transhumanism, things like
what’s the military doing, what’s DARPA doing, what’s
science doing, what’s happening on the artificial
intelligence front…not only
that, we can talk about the spiritual
world, the realities that are taking
place in the church, both the true church and the
false church. Much is happening
today, and we’re going to include it
in the Prophecy Watcher until, by the way, July 31st. Your
donation of $100 will get you a lifetime
subscription to the Prophecy
Watcher. I hope you take advantage of
that offer. Back to Doug. We’re talking about the
pre-tribulation rapture, we’re
talking about the tribulation itself.
What will it be like, what’s
today’s world like compared with the
world of the tribulation? Where do we want to go from here to
alert people to the reality of Bible prophecy?
>>Well, I’m in Revelation right here, and what I’m gonna
do is some people think Revelation
can’t be understood, but I am not of that opinion and neither
are you. It is not as difficult a book…there
are more difficult books in the
Bible than Revelation. You agree?>I agree!
Absolutely.>>Yes. So I’m gonna look at Revelation 1:19.
He says, “Write these things
which thou hast seen and the things which are and
the things which shall be
hereafter.” That is, the division that you find in
Revelation. And what I tell people, I say, “Well, what are
the things that are seen?”
Well, that’s chapters 1, 2, and 3. What are the things that
John had already seen? Well,
verse 20 says this, “The mystery of the
seven stars which thou sawest, in my right hand, the seven
golden candlesticks, the seven
stars of the angels and the seven
churches and the seven
candlesticks, which thou sawest are the seven
churches.” So even though this
is chapter 1 before he talks about the 7
churches in 2 and 3, the things he saw were
already the 7 churches. So there’s the division. That’s
the things he saw, the things which are, which I’ll
explain in a moment, and then
the things which shall be hereafter. Well, hereafter’s
the key word. So I jump over to chapter 4 with that
word hereafter in chapter 1,
verse 19. It says, “After this, I looked
and behold, a door was open in
heaven, and the first voice which I heard
was as it were of a trumpet
talking with me, saying, Come up hither.” So
it’s a picture of the rapture
there. John being called up. “And I will
show thee things which must be hereafter.”>Yes.>>So then
you’re going to be reading
about the hereafter. But what is the present, the things which
are? Well, that’s the picture
of John being raptured. So what you have is
the past is chapter 1, 2, and 3, the 7 churches which are
pictorially the church age. The present is John’s rapture
because John is in chapter 4, verse 1. Things
which are hereafter talk about the tribulation,
which is chapter 5, 6, through
19. And then the church coming back
in chapter 19. So that’s sort
of a breakout of the book of
Revelation.>So you would say,
you’d be one of those that
would say that John’s ascent into heaven is typical of the rapture.
>>Oh, absolutely. Yes.>And it comes after the 7 churches.
>>Right.>So it just makes
perfect sense. And I totally agree with that
as well. I’ll never forget the
first time I read Revelation chapter 4, and I saw John hearing a voice that
sounded like a trumpet and ascending into heaven. And
I thought, wow! That’s that
trumpet voice.>>Right, just like 1
Thessalonians 4.>Right. Same voice, as a matter of
fact, and I think we’ll
recognize that voice when we hear it.>>I
think we will recognize it, and I don’t know. Gary, I feel bad for those that twist the
scripture. They’re just taking this thing, you
know, their pre-wrath, their mid-trib, their post-trib, and
you know, I understand. They want to feel manly and
suffer and go into tribulation. “I’m
not afraid to match the
antichrist.” Whatever. They’re crazy people.
Insane. I’ve read my Bible. For that reason, I
don’t want to be here, but you know, I understand the
manlihood of it, but I believe believing scripture is
the true manlihoodness…in
other words, I’m gonna take the scripture
for what it says and not think
just because I’m an ambassador and
God’s gonna call his ambassadors home before he has
all out war on this earth that
somehow I need to apologize for the
fact that God’s going to do that. He’s going to
call his ambassadors home
first.>Let me run something past you. I’ve heard a lot of
people say that over the past 20, 30 years, a lot of
people have said the rapture is going to
occur on such and such a date.
That date came and went, and the
rapture didn’t happen. And people became very, very
disheartened and disappointed.
That happened back in 1988, on the 40th anniversary
of Israel’s statehood, from ’48 to ’88 was
40 years. A lot of people said well, when Israel is 40 years
old, that’s it. The rapture
will come that year. Well, it didn’t. And
a lot of people turned away, and that’s when you started
seeing alternate books saying that we’re gonna go through the
tribulation or at least part of
the way through the tribulation. It’s my opinion that a lot of
those books came as a result of the disappointment of those who
expected the rapture and it
didn’t come. So my question to you is how do
we live moment by moment in the
expectancy of the rapture
without getting disappointed?>>Well, I tell
people you ought to plan as
though you’re gonna be here for a
while, but live as though he’s
coming today. I tell people, look, don’t sell the future for the present. I mean,
I was going to quit Bible
college in 1984, 85, and go to the mission
field because Jesus was coming back, but then I was counseled,
and the counsel was, Look, if God called you to go
to Bible college, that’s where
you need to be. Finish the task at hand. So I
finished BIble college in 1988, got my second
degree, and I got my masters,
got my doctorate later, many years
later, and now I’ve written 10 books, and
I’m here in 2015 with you. The Lord
hasn’t come back. I’m not disillusioned though. Why?
Because I’m more excited today then when I was 15 years
ago. I’ve got more knowledge
today than I had 15 years ago. I’m more solid
today than what I was 15 and 25 years
ago. I’m excited because I’m watching
the Lord do a work, and we need to be excited because we
trust the Lord and put all of
our trust in him.>Having said that, let me just tell you that you can receive a
lot more of Doug Stauffer’s teachings on DVDs.
This is a 3-DVD set entitled God’s Wrath Vs.
the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, an expansion of what we’ve been
talking about during this
program.>>Right.>And this talks about
the rebirth of Israel, it talks about the
realignment of the nations in
the last days, and boy, are we ever seeing that. It talks
about the rapture of the
church, the return of Christ, it talks about the revelation,
and then it talks about the future, the
millennium, an eternity.
There’s a lot of information in this DVD set,
yours for $39.95, by the way, with a book
that both Doug and I think is an
excellent book. Tim LaHaye, Ed Hindson, have put together a
book called Exploring Bible Prophecy, and as we like to do,
we’re combining a couple of products, offering them to you
for $39.95. You can check it out on
ProphecyWatchers.com, the online bookstore. Look for
the Stauffer Offer. (Laughter)>>I like that.>That
rhymes.>>It does.>Easy to
remember. Online bookstore,
ProphecyWatchers.com, the
Stauffer Offer. God’s Wrath Vs. the
Pre-Trib Rapture, and Exploring Bible Prophecy
from Genesis to Revelation with Tim LaHaye and with Ed Hindson. Both men are devoted
to the word and very scholarly, by the way. Great information
here. We have about a minute and a half. How
would you like to close? Words
of encouragement to those who are
wondering what do you do if you don’t quite
know whether you’re sure about a pre-trib
rapture at this point in your
life?>>Well, I think the materials help,
obviously. We don’t produce
materials for any other reason than to
glorify God, help the saints, encourage them, see souls saved
– that type of thing, but you know, just get
in your Bible. I listen to Alexander Scourby. Sometimes I listen to him, oh,
well, right now I’m doing some work,
physical labor because I’m
trying to work on something, but 6, 7,
8 hours a day. So I’m constantly being saturated with
the Word of God. I read my Bible, I read it cover to
cover. I study it a lot. Get into the book. That’s
what’s gonna keep you right.
>That’s the inspired Word of God, only
book on earth that is, by the
way, or ever has been.>>That’s
right.>And you may say, well, that’s
unbelievable. Scholars, you
know, say that the book’s been through many
translations and nobody knows for sure what
the Bible says. And you’ve heard scholarship.>>I have.>But I
believe it’s the divinely written Word of God, written
basically with the hand of God through men who were devoted to
his work. And you can’t change my mind.
It will build you in ways that you
can’t even understand right
now. Stay in the Word, study, and then study the
productions put together by men who have
devoted years to studying the Bible. Doug Stauffer,
thanks for coming by.>>I
appreciate it, Gary, and thank you for having
me.>I’m Gary Stearman.

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